The Star online. News. Opinion. Monday November 6, 2006
During a recent visit, retired judge Baroness Elizabeth Butler-Sloss talked to SHAILA KOSHY about child laws, how the British legal system handles marital disputes among immigrant families and the lifetime anonymity she ordered for the two boys who killed toddler Jamie Bulger.
IT would be an understatement to say that Baroness Elizabeth Butler-Sloss cares about children.
“I feel passionately about children being removed from their homes.
“I care more about children removed from the home, their school, their friends, their own bedroom, their own toys, and suddenly yanked into another country by a parent – mother or father – who chooses to leave without either of the consent of the other parent or a court order.
“That is wrong and it’s unjust to the child but it’s done by parents.”
“I care more about children removed from the home, their school, their friends, their own bedroom, their own toys, and suddenly yanked into another country by a parent – mother or father – who chooses to leave without either of the consent of the other parent or a court order.
“That is wrong and it’s unjust to the child but it’s done by parents.”
We were talking about child abduction and transnational jurisdiction in our “global village” when Lady Butler-Sloss, the former President of the Family Division in England, suddenly made this impassioned speech.
As she noted: “In a global village, it is important that children should be able to move freely between countries and to be able to visit the countries of each of their parents and visit relatives and learn the culture.”
Earlier in her public lecture on Current Developments in Family Law, Lady Butler-Sloss had stressed the importance of closer ties between countries that had and had not signed The Hague Convention on Child Abduction.
Touching on the two meetings in Malta between the two groups of countries, she said she was pleased that 21 countries, including eight Islamic countries, with diverse family laws and including eight Islamic countries had agreed on fundamental principles of family law in relation to the wrongful removal or retention of children across transnational boundaries.
Retired in 2005, Lady Butler-Sloss, is a Bencher of the Inner Temple in London and was in Malaysia for the launch of the Malaysian Inner Temple Alumni on Sept 15 and to give a lecture, organised by the Asean Law Association and Inner Temple’s first international alumni, the next day.
She is very firm – she refused to take any questions on her appointment as coroner for the inquest into the death of Diana, the Princess of Wales – but is warm at the same time.
Lady Butler-Sloss has a wry sense of humour and you get the feeling that if you had to appear before her, as long as you knew your stuff, she wouldn’t have you for breakfast.
Talking about parental alienation, recognised as a syndrome in America but not Britain, and whether the mother – the guilty party in many instances – needed psychiatric evaluation, she said: “We don’t think the mother needs a psychiatrist; what she needs is a kick up the pants. This is an emotional problem, not a legal problem.”
With more foreigners moving to Britain and since a lot of their family issues relate to culture and religion, has British family law been able to cope or does Parliament expect migrants to submit to the laws of their new home?
“The present president of the Family Division, in a lecture he gave at Belfast, is aware of the cultural differences among people who come to the UK,” Lady Butler-Sloss replied.
“An example he gives is how grandmothers are often the primary carers in African countries. And so we have to recognise cultural differences.
“But if people choose to live in England, the basic English law is the one that should apply, although we will be sympathetic to cultural differences which are acceptable to everybody in that group.”
Lady Butler-Sloss is no stranger to controversy; she was a favourite target for Fathers 4 Justice, a support group for fathers who claimed she was sexist. One decision that caught the attention of the media here in 2001 was her order granting lifetime anonymity for Robert Thompson and Jon Venables who had been convicted of the killing of two-year-old Jamie Bulger in 1993.
She explained: “It was a shocking murder but they were 10. They were sentenced to life but the tariff (time they served) was eight years’ jail. That meant they would come out before going into an adult prison.
“Both had clearly repented and had had intensive help from psychiatrists and so on.
“They were scared stiff about being let out. There were vigilante groups out there saying openly they would kill the boys if they could find them and I had very strong evidence (for that).
Earlier in her public lecture on Current Developments in Family Law, Lady Butler-Sloss had stressed the importance of closer ties between countries that had and had not signed The Hague Convention on Child Abduction.
Touching on the two meetings in Malta between the two groups of countries, she said she was pleased that 21 countries, including eight Islamic countries, with diverse family laws and including eight Islamic countries had agreed on fundamental principles of family law in relation to the wrongful removal or retention of children across transnational boundaries.
Retired in 2005, Lady Butler-Sloss, is a Bencher of the Inner Temple in London and was in Malaysia for the launch of the Malaysian Inner Temple Alumni on Sept 15 and to give a lecture, organised by the Asean Law Association and Inner Temple’s first international alumni, the next day.
She is very firm – she refused to take any questions on her appointment as coroner for the inquest into the death of Diana, the Princess of Wales – but is warm at the same time.
Lady Butler-Sloss has a wry sense of humour and you get the feeling that if you had to appear before her, as long as you knew your stuff, she wouldn’t have you for breakfast.
Talking about parental alienation, recognised as a syndrome in America but not Britain, and whether the mother – the guilty party in many instances – needed psychiatric evaluation, she said: “We don’t think the mother needs a psychiatrist; what she needs is a kick up the pants. This is an emotional problem, not a legal problem.”
With more foreigners moving to Britain and since a lot of their family issues relate to culture and religion, has British family law been able to cope or does Parliament expect migrants to submit to the laws of their new home?
“The present president of the Family Division, in a lecture he gave at Belfast, is aware of the cultural differences among people who come to the UK,” Lady Butler-Sloss replied.
“An example he gives is how grandmothers are often the primary carers in African countries. And so we have to recognise cultural differences.
“But if people choose to live in England, the basic English law is the one that should apply, although we will be sympathetic to cultural differences which are acceptable to everybody in that group.”
Lady Butler-Sloss is no stranger to controversy; she was a favourite target for Fathers 4 Justice, a support group for fathers who claimed she was sexist. One decision that caught the attention of the media here in 2001 was her order granting lifetime anonymity for Robert Thompson and Jon Venables who had been convicted of the killing of two-year-old Jamie Bulger in 1993.
She explained: “It was a shocking murder but they were 10. They were sentenced to life but the tariff (time they served) was eight years’ jail. That meant they would come out before going into an adult prison.
“Both had clearly repented and had had intensive help from psychiatrists and so on.
“They were scared stiff about being let out. There were vigilante groups out there saying openly they would kill the boys if they could find them and I had very strong evidence (for that).
“At the time I saw it (the application for the gag order), they were under 18, so they were within our definition of children.
“The European Convention on Human Rights has a number of inalienable rights and a major right is the right to life and I was satisfied that this would be breached if these boys were let out into the community and were identified by the press and photographed.
“Therefore, I decided they had to have lifetime anonymity. Even murderers are entitled to stay alive; they are entitled to repent and then to be rehabilitated.
“And if it is the judgment of Lord Chief Justice that they be let out, I had to make sure they’d live, at least to try and live the lives of good citizens.”
Lady Butler-Sloss has not been taking it easy since she retired in April last year. She sits on a panel that appoints QC (Queen’s Counsel), is chairman of the St Paul’s Cathedral Advisory Council, (University of West England) chancellor and president of an NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) appeal on stopping paedophiles and child abuse.
“I give a lot of lectures. I have a house in the country that I get to when I can, I have a husband, two children, six grandchildren and I’ve been to three conferences recently,” she said in one long breath.
And what does she do for fun?
“Spend time with husband, garden occasionally; take the dog for a walk.”
Lady Butler-Sloss, who finds Malaysians “the most hospitable people”, said she would love to come back here.
“The European Convention on Human Rights has a number of inalienable rights and a major right is the right to life and I was satisfied that this would be breached if these boys were let out into the community and were identified by the press and photographed.
“Therefore, I decided they had to have lifetime anonymity. Even murderers are entitled to stay alive; they are entitled to repent and then to be rehabilitated.
“And if it is the judgment of Lord Chief Justice that they be let out, I had to make sure they’d live, at least to try and live the lives of good citizens.”
Lady Butler-Sloss has not been taking it easy since she retired in April last year. She sits on a panel that appoints QC (Queen’s Counsel), is chairman of the St Paul’s Cathedral Advisory Council, (University of West England) chancellor and president of an NSPCC (National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children) appeal on stopping paedophiles and child abuse.
“I give a lot of lectures. I have a house in the country that I get to when I can, I have a husband, two children, six grandchildren and I’ve been to three conferences recently,” she said in one long breath.
And what does she do for fun?
“Spend time with husband, garden occasionally; take the dog for a walk.”
Lady Butler-Sloss, who finds Malaysians “the most hospitable people”, said she would love to come back here.
Lady Butler-Sloss: Believes firmly in the principle of right to life
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